Discussion:
WHICH IS THE BETTER COUNTRY FOR AN EXIT REMAILER?
(too old to reply)
Nomen Nescio
2024-08-17 22:12:53 UTC
Permalink
I am not an expert of laws, but maybe someone knows.
¿ It exists an ideal country in which you could to set
an exit remailer without legal problems?
D
2024-08-17 22:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nomen Nescio
I am not an expert of laws, but maybe someone knows.
? It exists an ideal country in which you could to set
an exit remailer without legal problems?
might try antarctica(?) but as long as remailers support free speech
then those openly supporting the governments of any nation should be
welcome to access and utilize those remailers freely...that way it's
a win win for everyone including those that might be using remailers
for non-political/religious purposes...everyone supports free speech
Yamn3 Remailer
2024-08-18 18:53:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nomen Nescio
I am not an expert of laws, but maybe someone knows.
ż It exists an ideal country in which you could to set
an exit remailer without legal problems?
That’s a debatable point. Consider that there are really no safe havens anymore depending on the nature of the traffic. If your exit remailer traffic is a direct threat to governments,government officials,child pornography, exchanging sensitive military intelligence etc. etc. you can be assured you will come under heavy pressure regardless of the country you are in. I recall some years ago, Zax and his banana remailer blacklisted the domain whitehouse.gov for obvious reasons. Remailers operators have had their equipment seized.
Anonymous
2024-08-18 20:38:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nomen Nescio
I am not an expert of laws, but maybe someone knows.
z It exists an ideal country in which you could to set
an exit remailer without legal problems?
<Remailers operators have had their equipment seized.

Outside the US

austria remailer raided

"FBI Pays Visit to Austrian Remailer in Connection to Bomb Threats
The owner of the service wasn't accustomed to visits from the
police."

This was Christian Mock who operated the austria exit remailer
since the early days.

<https://news.softpedia.com/news/FBI-Pays-Visit-to-Austrian-Remailer-in-Connection-to-Bomb-Threats-266582.shtml>

In this particular example the physical server was located outside
the United States however the crime occurred at the University of
Pittsburgh inside the continental United States so the FBI claimed
jurisdiction.
D
2024-08-18 22:03:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anonymous
austria remailer raided
"FBI Pays Visit to Austrian Remailer in Connection to Bomb Threats
The owner of the service wasn't accustomed to visits from the
police."
This was Christian Mock who operated the austria exit remailer
since the early days.
<https://news.softpedia.com/news/FBI-Pays-Visit-to-Austrian-Remailer-in-Connection-to-Bomb-Threats-266582.shtml>
In this particular example the physical server was located outside
the United States however the crime occurred at the University of
Pittsburgh inside the continental United States so the FBI claimed
jurisdiction.
(using Tor Browser 13.5.2)
https://news.softpedia.com/news/FBI-Pays-Visit-to-Austrian-Remailer-in-Connection-to-Bomb-Threats-266582.shtml
Post by Anonymous
Apr 26, 2012 12:07 GMT * By Eduard Kovacs
The FBI seems to be highly determined to apprehend the ones behind the
bomb threats
On April 24, FBI representatives in charge of investigating the bomb
threats made against the University of Pittsburgh paid a visit to an
Austrian anonymous remailer provider whose services may have been
utilized by the criminal.
This comes after last week US authorities seized Riseup Networks'
server that hosted the Mixmaster anonymity service.
[end quoted excerpt]

using 40tude dialog . . . (100s of posts about this, just a few cited)

<news.server>:localhost
alt.privacy.anon-server
(195,900 articles b.w.)
Post by Anonymous
Path: news...!news.dizum.com!sewer-output!mail2news-x2!mail2news
Newsgroups: alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.privacy
Subject: Mixmaster implicated in bomb threats
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:06:31 +0000 (UTC)
Xref: news... alt.privacy.anon-server:39675 alt.privacy:27989
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/breaking/s_791037.html
This may serve as a test of law enforcement's ability to monitor and
defeat anonymous remailers. If the sender of these messages is
caught without giving themselves up, we will have reason to believe
that US law enforcement agencies are capable of breaking the security
of anonymous remailers. Unfortunately, it is likely that the court
will seal the records of the case, making it difficult for us to know
what evidence the police actually used.
Path: news...!newsout.ciudad-juarez.org!news.stray.cat.edu!not-for-mail
From: Anonymous
Newsgroups: alt.privacy.anon-server
Subject: Re: Mixmaster implicated in bomb threats
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 18:56:01 -0400
NNTP-Posting-Host: sly-ocelot.stray.cat.edu
Xref: news... alt.privacy.anon-server:39706
The FBI seized the server that the cripto remailer was running on.
https://help.riseup.net/en/seizure-2012-april
Date: 27 Apr 2012 20:29:09 -0000
Subject: FBI Targets Austrian Remailer
X-No-Archive: yes
Newsgroups: alt.privacy.anon-server
Path: news...!188.40.76.149.MISMATCH!mail2news.mixmin.net!not-for-mail
Lines: 7
Xref: news... alt.privacy.anon-server:40000
http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/fbi-targets-austrian-remailer-pitt-
bomb-threat-case-042612
Subject: Ping AUSTRIA rempos
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 00:29:04 +0100 (CET)
Newsgroups: alt.privacy.anon-server
Path: news...!alphared!sewer!news.dizum.net!not-for-mail
Injection-Info: sewer.dizum.com - 2001::1/128
Xref: news... alt.privacy.anon-server:13007
Christian, as your remail was one of the few exit remailer please
revive him.
Subject: PING Christian Mock remops Austria
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:23:21 +0000
Newsgroups: alt.privacy.anon-server
Path: news...!alphared!sewer!news.dizum.net!not-for-mail
Injection-Info: sewer.dizum.com - 2001::1/128
Xref: news... alt.privacy.anon-server:13037
Hello Chiristian,
unfortunately your remailer is not working anymore. Since austria
was one of the very few exit remailers this is very, very unfortunate.
Could you please reawaken your remailer ?
Subject: Re: The Austria remailer is gone.
Path: news...!feeder4.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!news.usenet.farm
Date: Sun, 03 Jul 22 20:52:26 UTC
Newsgroups: alt.privacy.anon-server
Xref: news... alt.privacy.anon-server:13595
Austria is gone from my stats.
Gone since March 9, 2022 actually.
Austria Mixmaster remailer and pinger. Gone.
YAMN remailer and pinger. Gone.
No announcement of a closure either. Interpret that as you will. I
suppose it could mean that austria might still return. But I'm not
getting that vibe.
[end quoted plain text]
D
2024-08-19 00:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anonymous
austria remailer raided
"FBI Pays Visit to Austrian Remailer in Connection to Bomb Threats
The owner of the service wasn't accustomed to visits from the
police."
This was Christian Mock who operated the austria exit remailer
since the early days.
<https://news.softpedia.com/news/FBI-Pays-Visit-to-Austrian-Remailer-in-Connection-to-Bomb-Threats-266582.shtml>
In this particular example the physical server was located outside
the United States however the crime occurred at the University of
Pittsburgh inside the continental United States so the FBI claimed
jurisdiction.
p.s.
Post by Anonymous
Date: 20 Apr 2012 22:24:50 -0000
Subject: FBI Seizes Server from Progressive Internet Service Provider
X-No-Archive: yes
Newsgroups: alt.privacy.anon-server
Path: news...!188.40.76.149.MISMATCH!mail2news.mixmin.net!not-for-mail
Lines: 176
Xref: news... alt.privacy.anon-server:39755
By davidswanson - Posted on 20 April 2012
By Jamie McClelland, May First/People Link, http://www.mayfirst.org
In an attack on our infrastructure, our movement and the democratic
Internet, the FBI seized a server yesterday from one of our cabinets in
a colocation facility.
The server is owned by our sister organization, Riseup, and is managed
by ECN, a progressive technology provider in Italy.
While the seizure of any equipment is pernicious and damaging, the
pointlessness of this seizure suggests an inclination toward
extrajudicial punishment and an attempted crackdown on the very
possibility of anonymous speech online.
The FBI has told us they are investigating bomb threats targeting the
facilities and people at the University of Pittsburgh. They appear to
believe that one of the servers used to transmit these threats was an
anonymous e-mail server operated by ECN. Anonymous remailers have no
logs or traces of who used them, so the FBI will not get any useful
information from the stolen machine.
Seizing this machine serves no useful purpose in tracking down or
stopping the bomb threats, but it has many serious negative
implications. Anonymous e-mail is an important part of the Internet. One
of the benefits of Internet technology is the ability to communicate
world-wide, and this communication is fundamental to the struggles of
the world's people to address many of the world's ills. In a period in
which our society has seen massive losses of privacy in which just about
everything we do on-line can be tracked, logged, studied and used for
all kinds of purposes, anonymous Internet-based communication tools
provide shade from the intrusive searchlights of ubiquitous
surveillance.
Insiders who reveal government and military malfeasance, corporate
whistleblowers, critics within institutions, organizers who fear police
repression, and others involved in liberatory struggle can and do use
anonymous e-mail. Anonymous e-mail is one of the critical tools of the
democracy movement unfolding worldwide, including the Middle East.
Without anonymous communications, such movements would have had even
greater difficulty organizing and would face greater risks and
repression. Without anonymous communications, our already-constrained
knowledge of what government and corporations actually do in our name
and against our interests would be even more limited. Without anonymous
communications, the Internet becomes little more than a caricature of
its potential as a tool for building a just global society.
When authorities forcibly remove a computer from an anonymous
communications network, they weaken that network and set a precedent for
attack on anonymity in general. If we lose anonymous e-mail, we
effectively lose the Internet as a tool for organizing and change.
The use of anonymous communications for bomb threats is horrible. We at
MF/PL have never condoned threats of violence or the use of Internet
technology to harm people. Such use runs counter to our vision of the
reason the Internet exists and its proper use. We are deeply saddened by
the pain caused so many people by these sociopathic activities.
However, we cannot stop malicious anonymous e-mail without also
destroying the ability to use anonymous e-mail for beneficial purposes.
In the other hand, according to the news, the bomb threats continue to
arrive at University of Pittsburgh after this outrageous seizure. There
is no positive outcome to this action by the FBI.
We will defend our members' privacy and their data. We will also
aggressively seek the return of the computer the FBI took and other
legal remedies against those who collaborated in the violation of our
rights. We remain committed to defending the use and protection of
anonymous communication world-wide, and to the advancement of the
Internet as a tool for liberatory change and social justice.
On Wednesday, April 18, at approximately 16:00 ET, U.S. Federal
authorities removed a server from a colocation facility shared by Riseup
Networks and May First/People Link in New York City.
The seized server was operated by the European Counter Network ("ECN"),
the oldest independent internet service provider in Europe, who, among
many other things, provided an anonymous remailer service, Mixmaster,
that was the target of an FBI investigation into the bomb threats
against the University of Pittsburgh.
"The company running the facility has confirmed that the server was
removed in conjunction with a search warrant issued by the FBI," said
May First/People Link director Jamie McClelland. "The server seizure is
not only an attack against us, but an attack against all users of the
Internet who depend on anonymous communication."
Disrupted in this seizure were academics, artists, historians, feminist
groups, gay rights groups, community centers, documentation and software
archives and free speech groups. The server included the mailing list
"cyber rights" (the oldest discussion list in Italy to discuss this
topic), a Mexican migrant solidarity group, and other groups working to
support indigenous groups and workers in Latin America, the Caribbean
and Africa. In total, over 300 email accounts, between 50-80 email
lists, and several other websites have been taken off the Internet by
this action. None are alleged to be involved in the anonymous bomb
threats.
"The FBI is using a sledgehammer approach, shutting down service to
hundreds of users due to the actions of one anonymous person," said
Devin Theriot-Orr, a spokesperson for Riseup. "This is particularly
misguided because there is unlikely to be any information on the server
regarding the source of the threatening emails."
"We sympathize with the University of Pittsburgh community who have had
to deal with this frightening disruption for weeks. We oppose such
threatening actions. However, taking this server won't stop these bomb
threats. The only effect it has is to also disrupt e-mail and websites
for thousands of unrelated people," continues Mr. Theriot-Orr.
"Furthermore, the network of anonymous remailers that exists is not
harmed by taking this machine. So we cannot help but wonder why such
drastic action was taken when authorities knew that the server contained
no useful information that would help in their investigation."
The FBI purportedly seized the server because it was hosting an
anonymous remailer called Mixmaster. Anonymous remailers are used to
send email anonymously, or pseudonymously. Like other anonymizing
services such as the Tor network, these remailers are widely used to
protect the identity of human rights activists who place themselves and
their families in grave danger by reporting information about abuses.
Remailers are also important for corporate whistle blowers, democracy
activists working under repressive regimes, and others to communicate
vital information that would otherwise go un-reported.
The Mixmaster software is specifically designed to make it impossible
for anyone to trace the emails. The system does not record logs of
connections, details of who sent messages, or how they were routed. This
is because the Mixmaster network is specifically designed to resist
censorship, and support privacy and anonymity. Unfortunately, some
people misuse the network. However, compared to the rate of legitimate
use, the abuse rate is very low. There is therefore no legitimate
purpose for the FBI to seize this server because they will not be able
to obtain any information about the sender. This is plainly
extrajudicial punishment and an attack on free speech and anonymity on
the internet and serves as a chilling effect on others providers of
anonymous remailers or other anonymous services.
MayFirst/People Link (mayfirst.org) is a politically-progressive
member-run and controlled organization that redefines the concept of
"Internet Service Provider" in a collective and collaborative way. May
First/People Link's members are organizers and activists who elect a
Leadership Committee to direct the organization. Like a coop, members
pay dues, buy equipment and then share that equipment for websites,
email, email lists, and other Internet purposes.
Riseup Networks (riseup.net) provides online communication tools for
people and groups working on liberatory social change. Riseup creates
democratic alternatives and practices self-determination by controlling
our own secure means of communications.
ECN (European Counter Network - ecn.org) is the oldest independent
service provider in Europe providing free email accounts, mailing lists,
and websites to organizations, activists, and movements that are
involved in human rights, freedom of speech and information in Italy and
Europe. ECN is anti-fascist and works towards a just and equal society.
Years ago, before sites like Youtube and Vimeo existed, ECN created a
platform called NGV where people could upload and share independent
video of human rights violations. Nowadays ECN works primarily with
anti-fascist and anti-Nazi movements in all of Europe, providing space
and resources to political and social centers.
================================================
E.
[end quoted plain text]

see also:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120421042403/https://help.riseup.net/en/seizure-2012-april
Nomen Nescio
2024-08-23 12:38:09 UTC
Permalink
You can count on the Federal Bastards of Investigation and the National
Shiters Agency to be sending some death threats and other nasties out
so as to be able to attack exits. I would try to find a VPS that
accepts Bitcoin. You have to obscure the Bitcoin transaction, however.
That is something that is not all that easy to do.

c***@simple.net
2024-08-18 21:19:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 00:12:53 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio
Post by Nomen Nescio
I am not an expert of laws, but maybe someone knows.
¿ It exists an ideal country in which you could to set
an exit remailer without legal problems?
global laws.

https://www.dlapiperdataprotection.com/
Fritz Wuehler
2024-08-20 12:14:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nomen Nescio
I am not an expert of laws, but maybe someone knows.
? It exists an ideal country in which you could to set
an exit remailer without legal problems?
The history of Erie shows that USA is the worst country in which
to set an exit remailer.
Erie lasted ten days an then had to change to middle in order
to avoid reprisals.
Yamn2 Remailer
2024-08-20 14:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fritz Wuehler
I am nfor t remailer without legal problems?
The history of Erie shows that USA is the worst country in which
to set an exit rdemise. his emailer.
Erie lasted ten days an then had to change to middle in order
to avoid reprisals.
In erie's case, based on his rather terse statements, geographical
location had nothing to do with it.

An exit remailer will receive abuse complaints regardless of their
physical location.

if I recall correctly many years ago, Zax's banana remailer was exit
for a time, but he switched to middle. And he is not in the United
States.
Fritz Wuehler
2024-08-21 17:05:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yamn2 Remailer
An exit remailer will receive abuse complaints regardless of their
physical location.
But if dizum and frell are still alive, maybe in their country
the admins feels more protected against reprisals.
I suppose that sometimes it can happen that dizum and frell are
used by some stupid guy for send bad content, but they are still
working.
But majority uses remailers to protect their lives and if sometimes
a weird guy uses remailers for bad reasons, it's inevitable.
It's like with public transport: sometimes someone damages them,
or someone uses them to carry drugs or to robbing travelers,
but that's not why we abolish public transport.
Yamn3 Remailer
2024-08-21 19:47:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fritz Wuehler
Post by Yamn2 Remailer
An exit remailer will receive abuse complaints regardless of their
physical location.
But if dizum and frell are still alive, maybe in their country
the admins feels more protected against reprisals.
I suppose that sometimes it can happen that dizum and frell are
used by some stupid guy for send bad content, but they are still
working.
But majority uses remailers to protect their lives and if sometimes
a weird guy uses remailers for bad reasons, it's inevitable.
It's like with public transport: sometimes someone damages them,
or someone uses them to carry drugs or to robbing travelers,
but that's not why we abolish public transport.
All great points. Thanks.

Some serious crimes and offenses such as bomb threats, child porn etc. will certainly transcend local country privacy laws and can easily
bring international heat. No local privacy laws will offer any shield
from that.

The austria remailer case is certainly evidence of that.

One certainly must "balls of steel" to run an exit.
The abuse complaints are inevitable.

dizum, paranoia, and frell are old veterans of remailers going back nearly 20 years.

I’m quite sure that they are well accustomed to receiving innumerable abuse complaints.

No doubt in many of these situations the remop simply explains to the complainant that their exit remailer is simply passing a message along, and is not the source of the original message and it is impossible for them to know what or whom the source of the message is.
D
2024-08-21 20:08:59 UTC
Permalink
I'm quite sure that
"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes-and ships-and sealing-wax-
Of cabbages-and kings-
And why the sea is boiling hot-
And whether pigs have wings."
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